A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Switch to a system without lost coins

Yes
17
50%
No
17
50%
 
Total votes: 34

doublec
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 12:47 am
os: linux
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by doublec »

ribuck wrote:
vinced wrote:This is implemented in the latest github commit.
Not happy. It will just lead to massive squatting by miners.
I don't plan to update my pool until I see a description of the changes and why they're needed. Let's have some discussion.

JohnDoe
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 8:46 pm
os: linux

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by JohnDoe »

doublec wrote:I don't plan to update my pool until I see a description of the changes and why they're needed. Let's have some discussion.
At the time of this posting, the cost of registering a domain is around $10 USD. A few days ago it was over $20. At that price there's not much incentive for normal people to ditch ICANN and register a .bit domain instead.

Also the update period of 12,000 blocks was way too low in my opinion. People would have gotten pretty annoyed updating every 3 months or less.

doublec
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 12:47 am
os: linux
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by doublec »

JohnDoe wrote: At the time of this posting, the cost of registering a domain is around $10 USD. A few days ago it was over $20. At that price there's not much incentive for normal people to ditch ICANN and register a .bit domain instead.
So my questions are:

1) Why was the original cost system introduced?
2) What was wrong with the ideas behind (1).
3) What does the new system change that fixes (2).
4) Is (3) enough to cover the 'you must update or the network fails' pain.

Saying I won't upgrade is probably a bit strong. Why I really mean is I don't understand how upgrading benefits me. If less than 50% of the network upgrades, I can't register names! People might choose not to use my pool if I upgrade because they don't like the new rules. I need to understand the new rules so I can say "New rules good. Use my Pool please.".

JohnDoe
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 8:46 pm
os: linux

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by JohnDoe »

doublec wrote:
1) Why was the original cost system introduced?
2) What was wrong with the ideas behind (1).
3) What does the new system change that fixes (2).
4) Is (3) enough to cover the 'you must update or the network fails' pain.

Saying I won't upgrade is probably a bit strong. Why I really mean is I don't understand how upgrading benefits me. If less than 50% of the network upgrades, I can't register names! People might choose not to use my pool if I upgrade because they don't like the new rules. I need to understand the new rules so I can say "New rules good. Use my Pool please.".
1) To minimize a squatting rush.
2) The market value of namecoins and cost of mining them rose faster than expected so registering domains has become more expensive than intended.
3) Speeding up the decrease of the fee will allow the price of registering domains to go down to reasonable levels.
4) Yes, because if it remains too expensive to register domains then people will lose interest in the project and leave.

khal
Site Admin
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:09 pm
os: linux

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by khal »

vinced wrote:In the current system, registration fees are reduced by 50% about every 3 months. There is no lower limit, so the fees will go to zero after a few years. If the value of NMC grows faster than that, then indeed there is an issue.
The GetNetworkFee function must be corrected so, because it doesn't have this behaviour (should be free after block 85000) after block 150000.
I've done an rpc patch to test different block values :
./namecoind getnetworkfee 1200000000
0.13000000
./namecoind getnetworkfee 12000000
0.01000000
./namecoind getnetworkfee 2400000
0.03000000
./namecoind getnetworkfee 450000 (normal)
0.01000000

10000 : 22.25000000
11000 : 20.72000000
12000 : 19.19000000
13000 : 17.67000000
14000 : 16.14000000
15000 : 14.62000000
16000 : 13.09000000
17000 : 12.04000000
18000 : 11.27000000
19000 : 10.51000000
20000 : 9.75000000
21000 : 8.98000000
22000 : 8.22000000
23000 : 7.46000000
24000 : 6.69000000
25000 : 4.95000000
26000 : 3.42000000
27000 : 2.51000000
28000 : 1.75000000
29000 : 1.28000000
30000 : 0.90000000
31000 : 0.65000000
32000 : 0.46000000
33000 : 0.33000000
34000 : 0.24000000
35000 : 0.17000000
36000 : 0.12000000
37000 : 0.09000000
38000 : 0.07000000
39000 : 0.05000000
40000 : 0.04000000
41000 : 0.03000000
42000 : 0.02000000
43000 : 0.02000000
44000 : 0.01000000
45000 : 0.01000000
46000 : 0.01000000
47000 : 0.01000000
48000 : 0.01000000
49000 : 0.01000000
50000 : 0.01000000
51000 : 0.01000000
52000 : 0.01000000
53000 : 0.01000000
54000 : 0.01000000
55000 : 0.01000000
56000 : 0.01000000
57000 : 0.01000000
58000 : 0.01000000
59000 : 0.01000000
60000 : 0.01000000
61000 : 0.01000000
62000 : 0.01000000
63000 : 0.01000000
64000 : 0.01000000
65000 : 0.01000000
66000 : 0.01000000
67000 : 0.01000000
68000 : 0.01000000
69000 : 0.01000000
70000 : 0.01000000
71000 : 0.01000000
72000 : 0.01000000
73000 : 0.01000000
74000 : 0.01000000
75000 : 0.01000000
76000 : 0.01000000
77000 : 0.01000000
78000 : 0.01000000
79000 : 0.01000000
80000 : 0.01000000
81000 : 0.01000000
82000 : 0.01000000
83000 : 0.01000000
84000 : 0.01000000
85000 : 0.01000000
86000 : 0.00000000
87000 : 0.00000000
...
147000 : 0.00000000
148000 : 0.00000000
149000 : 0.00000000
150000 : 38.68000000
151000 : 26.47000000
152000 : 19.63000000
153000 : 13.53000000
154000 : 9.97000000
155000 : 6.91000000
156000 : 5.06000000
157000 : 3.53000000
158000 : 2.57000000
159000 : 1.81000000
160000 : 1.31000000
161000 : 0.92000000
162000 : 0.66000000
163000 : 0.47000000
164000 : 0.34000000
165000 : 0.24000000
166000 : 0.17000000
167000 : 0.13000000
168000 : 0.09000000
169000 : 0.07000000
170000 : 0.05000000
171000 : 0.04000000
172000 : 0.03000000
173000 : 0.02000000
174000 : 0.02000000
175000 : 0.01000000
176000 : 0.01000000
177000 : 0.01000000
178000 : 0.01000000
179000 : 0.01000000
180000 : 0.01000000
181000 : 0.01000000
182000 : 0.01000000
183000 : 0.01000000
184000 : 0.01000000
185000 : 0.01000000
186000 : 0.01000000
187000 : 0.01000000
188000 : 0.01000000
189000 : 0.01000000
190000 : 0.01000000
191000 : 0.01000000
192000 : 0.01000000
193000 : 0.01000000
194000 : 0.01000000
195000 : 0.01000000
196000 : 0.01000000
197000 : 0.01000000
198000 : 0.01000000
199000 : 0.01000000
200000 : 0.01000000


Here is the used code :

Code: Select all

Value getnetworkfee(const Array& params, bool fHelp)
{
    int64 nHeight = params[0].get_int();
    int64 nNetFee = GetNetworkFee(nHeight);
    // Round up to CENT
    nNetFee += CENT - 1;
    nNetFee = (nNetFee / CENT) * CENT;
    return  ValueFromAmount(nNetFee);
}
The full patch is attached, to apply :

Code: Select all

patch -p1 < patch.txt
Attachments
patch.txt
(2.09 KiB) Downloaded 159 times
NamecoinID: id/khal
GPG : 9CC5B92E965D69A9
NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T

Register Namecoin domains with BTC
My bitcoin Identity - Send messages to bitcoin users
Charity Ad - Make a good deed without paying a cent

mogadanez
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:20 pm
os: windows

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by mogadanez »

khal wrote:Namecoin is designed to provide almost free names at the end. So, this problem is not really a problem but a design choice.
Domains are already reserved by some "squatters", so this will not change a lot of things.

Due to the BTC/USD price and the super fast difficulty increase of namecoin (faster than "planned" by the old algo), a name cost up to 40/60$. Don't you think it's a little bit overpriced and limit it's usage for normal users ?

I think you underestimate squatters
now price high for squatters too. it seen by low activity in registration. now only really cool names are registered.
But in future ( not far i think, because cost is lowering exponential ) squatters activity will increase.
Keeping in mind that .bit is not wide famous for normal users, squatters can very fast take major part of most useful domains.
for example having 50000 NMC now you can register approx. 5 millions domains across year( as i understand it is approximate time to calculate up to 50000 blocks ? ).

ribuck
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by ribuck »

ribuck wrote:
vinced wrote:This is implemented in the latest github commit.
Not happy. It will just lead to massive squatting by miners.
Maybe I misunderstood the nature of the commit. If it is just changing the amount of the fee, no problem. But the title of this topic refers to coins being "lost", so I assumed the commit was changing it so that first_update fees are no longer burned but will go to the miner. And that's what I would object to, because it would mean that miners can squat large numbers of names almost-for-free, while everyone else needs to pay.

Burning the coins puts everyone on an equal footing.

khal
Site Admin
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:09 pm
os: linux

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by khal »

Indeed, coins are still lost. The "speed rules" have changed.
NamecoinID: id/khal
GPG : 9CC5B92E965D69A9
NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T

Register Namecoin domains with BTC
My bitcoin Identity - Send messages to bitcoin users
Charity Ad - Make a good deed without paying a cent

ribuck
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by ribuck »

Thank you, khal, for correcting my misunderstanding. I don't think the speed rules needed to be tinkered with, but it's not a big deal. I retract my "Not happy" comment.

khal
Site Admin
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:09 pm
os: linux

Re: A lot of coins are lost, it should be changed

Post by khal »

Here is a patch to correct the bad fee values around block 150000, and return more precise values. Returned fees are a bit lower than with the bad function (14.01 instead of 14.56).

for i in `seq 10 100`; do echo -n $i"000"; ./namecoind getnetworkfee $i"000"; done
10000 : 21.46000000
11000 : 19.72000000
12000 : 18.12000000
13000 : 16.65000000
14000 : 15.30000000
15000 : 14.06000000
16000 : 12.92000000
17000 : 11.87000000
18000 : 10.91000000
19000 : 10.02000000
20000 : 9.21000000
21000 : 8.46000000
22000 : 7.78000000
23000 : 7.15000000
24000 : 6.57000000
25000 : 4.68000000
26000 : 3.34000000
27000 : 2.38000000
28000 : 1.70000000
29000 : 1.21000000
30000 : 0.87000000
31000 : 0.62000000
32000 : 0.44000000
33000 : 0.32000000
34000 : 0.23000000
35000 : 0.16000000
36000 : 0.12000000
37000 : 0.09000000
38000 : 0.06000000
39000 : 0.05000000
40000 : 0.03000000
41000 : 0.03000000
42000 : 0.02000000
43000 : 0.02000000
44000 : 0.01000000
45000 : 0.01000000
46000 : 0.01000000
47000 : 0.01000000
48000 : 0.01000000
49000 : 0.01000000
50000 : 0.01000000
51000 : 0.01000000
52000 : 0.01000000
53000 : 0.01000000
54000 : 0.01000000
55000 : 0.01000000
56000 : 0.01000000
57000 : 0.01000000
58000 : 0.01000000
59000 : 0.01000000
60000 : 0.01000000
61000 : 0.01000000
62000 : 0.01000000
63000 : 0.01000000
64000 : 0.01000000
65000 : 0.01000000
66000 : 0.01000000
67000 : 0.01000000
68000 : 0.01000000
69000 : 0.01000000
70000 : 0.01000000
71000 : 0.01000000
72000 : 0.01000000
73000 : 0.01000000
74000 : 0.01000000
75000 : 0.01000000
76000 : 0.01000000
77000 : 0.01000000
78000 : 0.01000000
79000 : 0.01000000
80000 : 0.01000000
81000 : 0.01000000
82000 : 0.01000000
83000 : 0.01000000
84000 : 0.00000000
85000 : 0.00000000
...
99000 : 0.00000000
100000 : 0.00000000
...
200000 : 0.00000000
...
900000 : 0.00000000

ps : free name_firstupdate at block 83986.
Attachments
0001-Fix-network-fees-after-blocks-150K.patch.txt
(710 Bytes) Downloaded 125 times
NamecoinID: id/khal
GPG : 9CC5B92E965D69A9
NMC: N1KHAL5C1CRzy58NdJwp1tbLze3XrkFxx9
BTC: 1KHAL8bUjnkMRMg9yd2dNrYnJgZGH8Nj6T

Register Namecoin domains with BTC
My bitcoin Identity - Send messages to bitcoin users
Charity Ad - Make a good deed without paying a cent

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