Newbie looking to get involved

domob
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Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by domob »

virtual_master wrote:By currencies generally demurrage is the cost associated with owning or holding a currency.
Specifically by Namecoin the this costs would be associated with the running network nodes which are consuming electricity, the miners are securing the network.
Demurage is the honest solution for what the inflation is the dishonest solution.
If implemented then the network tells to the people the demurrage costs.
I am aware that the idea is not so popular but keeping it very low could be beneficial.
It could be even 1% demurrage/year. But if you bind your coins you can get 1% interests. That would keep balance because not more then 50% of the owners will bind their coins.
So could be created a second layer of coin(and eventually Proof of Stack block) production like PPC uses but not inflationary, just financed from the demurrage.
The merged mining with Bitcoin layer would be kept and a second with Proof of Stack would be added. That would improve network security.
The unpopularity of demurrage would be compensated by the popularity of creating own coins with POS. I think the popularity effect it would have a positive ballance because people are thinking more what they can win than what they can loose.
While I think that PoS is a very nice concept, I don't like this proposal very much. First because I think it will be very difficult to change Namecoin's distribution mechanism in this way (also community-wise, not only technically). AFAIK this would be the first alt-coin that does such drastic changes to its fundamentals while already running. I don't really see a problem that would justify the necessity for such a invasive change. Why would you want to introduce PoS and demurrage at all?

Second, I really dislike introducing demurrage. Of course, if you want a system that incentivises spending, then demurrage is indeed more honest than inflation. But I just don't think anyone would ever accept demurrage for psychological reasons; after all, I don't think central banks use inflation instead without a good reason. Furthermore, why do you actually want to incentivise spending / binding coins? Namecoin isn't intended as a payment system, and certainly not as one that should drive up consumption and encourage economic growth. Namecoin is about buying names. Do you want people to squat even more names just because they lose their coins eventually anyway to demurrage?

Finally, my understanding of PoS in PPC, for instance, is that you still need either substantial holdings or substantial mining power also in order to mine a PoS block. So even though PoS inflation might technically counter demurrage, wouldn't it require people without such massive resources to either a) waste their (small) coin age and just accept demurrage without interest, or b) deposit their coins at a "bank" / "PoS pool" that uses the combined coin age to mine blocks and pay out interest to all depositors? This is entirely against the decentralisation philosophy; just look at inputs.io and tell me that you really want to incentivise people to store their coins at some kind of "bank" instead of holding the wallets themselves. (If it is possible to get PoS interests for coins somehow "bound" in a trust-free way, please clarify how you would want to do that!)
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biolizard89
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 am
os: linux

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by biolizard89 »

domob wrote:
virtual_master wrote:By currencies generally demurrage is the cost associated with owning or holding a currency.
Specifically by Namecoin the this costs would be associated with the running network nodes which are consuming electricity, the miners are securing the network.
Demurage is the honest solution for what the inflation is the dishonest solution.
If implemented then the network tells to the people the demurrage costs.
I am aware that the idea is not so popular but keeping it very low could be beneficial.
It could be even 1% demurrage/year. But if you bind your coins you can get 1% interests. That would keep balance because not more then 50% of the owners will bind their coins.
So could be created a second layer of coin(and eventually Proof of Stack block) production like PPC uses but not inflationary, just financed from the demurrage.
The merged mining with Bitcoin layer would be kept and a second with Proof of Stack would be added. That would improve network security.
The unpopularity of demurrage would be compensated by the popularity of creating own coins with POS. I think the popularity effect it would have a positive ballance because people are thinking more what they can win than what they can loose.
While I think that PoS is a very nice concept, I don't like this proposal very much. First because I think it will be very difficult to change Namecoin's distribution mechanism in this way (also community-wise, not only technically). AFAIK this would be the first alt-coin that does such drastic changes to its fundamentals while already running. I don't really see a problem that would justify the necessity for such a invasive change. Why would you want to introduce PoS and demurrage at all?

Second, I really dislike introducing demurrage. Of course, if you want a system that incentivises spending, then demurrage is indeed more honest than inflation. But I just don't think anyone would ever accept demurrage for psychological reasons; after all, I don't think central banks use inflation instead without a good reason. Furthermore, why do you actually want to incentivise spending / binding coins? Namecoin isn't intended as a payment system, and certainly not as one that should drive up consumption and encourage economic growth. Namecoin is about buying names. Do you want people to squat even more names just because they lose their coins eventually anyway to demurrage?

Finally, my understanding of PoS in PPC, for instance, is that you still need either substantial holdings or substantial mining power also in order to mine a PoS block. So even though PoS inflation might technically counter demurrage, wouldn't it require people without such massive resources to either a) waste their (small) coin age and just accept demurrage without interest, or b) deposit their coins at a "bank" / "PoS pool" that uses the combined coin age to mine blocks and pay out interest to all depositors? This is entirely against the decentralisation philosophy; just look at inputs.io and tell me that you really want to incentivise people to store their coins at some kind of "bank" instead of holding the wallets themselves. (If it is possible to get PoS interests for coins somehow "bound" in a trust-free way, please clarify how you would want to do that!)
I don't have much to say on this subject but I generally agree with domob.
Jeremy Rand, Lead Namecoin Application Engineer
NameID: id/jeremy
DyName: Dynamic DNS update client for .bit domains.

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virtual_master
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Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by virtual_master »

domob wrote: While I think that PoS is a very nice concept, I don't like this proposal very much. First because I think it will be very difficult to change Namecoin's distribution mechanism in this way (also community-wise, not only technically). AFAIK this would be the first alt-coin that does such drastic changes to its fundamentals while already running. I don't really see a problem that would justify the necessity for such a invasive change. Why would you want to introduce PoS and demurrage at all?

Second, I really dislike introducing demurrage. Of course, if you want a system that incentivises spending, then demurrage is indeed more honest than inflation. But I just don't think anyone would ever accept demurrage for psychological reasons; after all, I don't think central banks use inflation instead without a good reason. Furthermore, why do you actually want to incentivise spending / binding coins? Namecoin isn't intended as a payment system, and certainly not as one that should drive up consumption and encourage economic growth. Namecoin is about buying names. Do you want people to squat even more names just because they lose their coins eventually anyway to demurrage?

Finally, my understanding of PoS in PPC, for instance, is that you still need either substantial holdings or substantial mining power also in order to mine a PoS block. So even though PoS inflation might technically counter demurrage, wouldn't it require people without such massive resources to either a) waste their (small) coin age and just accept demurrage without interest, or b) deposit their coins at a "bank" / "PoS pool" that uses the combined coin age to mine blocks and pay out interest to all depositors? This is entirely against the decentralisation philosophy; just look at inputs.io and tell me that you really want to incentivise people to store their coins at some kind of "bank" instead of holding the wallets themselves. (If it is possible to get PoS interests for coins somehow "bound" in a trust-free way, please clarify how you would want to do that!)
Thank you for your answer, you had very logical arguments. I am also not fixed on this, it was just a brainstorming idea.
So I agree with you that demurrage is not popular and is intended to spend money. (and Namecoin is not intended primary as payment method)
So let we away demurrage and POS block generation(which would be a very radical change). Beside of this POS is still not stable and needs Points of Check.

But how about to extend Namecoin as investment and value storage method with high privacy ?
This wouldn't bloat the blockchain and could have a beneficiary effect on the NMC price, which would rise network difficulty and security.
How to incentivise this ? With interest for longer time binding of coins.
How to finance this ? With the destroyed coins. They are any way heavily criticized.
For example 500 days of binding with 1% interest rate.
The interest rate should be elected so that interest payment and coin destruction should stay in balance.
Even if we don't keep the coin destruction and will be disabled in favor of the coin binding(as discussed by fees) the same amount as the coins already destructed could be created additionally(the destructed coins would be 'brought back'), stimulating with them investment in the Namecoin network.
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jprider63
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by jprider63 »

biolizard89 wrote:
jprider63 wrote:
biolizard89 wrote:To be honest I don't see much practical benefit from this. Can you elaborate on a use case where this would make a significant difference? HTTP headers are pretty minimal in size already, even if using Tor or something like that.
Here's a reason to do so:

https://developers.google.com/speed/doc ... lessDomain

Large scale companies are purchasing separate domains to deliver static content. It'd be nice if the dns namespace could support it so that this is unnecessary.
I'm not following what this has to do with dot-bit. The link you gave said that a separate domain is necessary. Can't you already do this via the "map" field? Why would we need a DNS field for disabling cookies when the web server can just not set any cookies?
The way I understand how current cookies work is that the web server can either set the cookie for the site as a whole, or for a specific subdomain. There is currently no way to exclude cookies from a subdomain. This is a problem if a site, say Google, has many subdomains that all share login session information. Now if Google wants to add a static subdomain, this subdomain will receive the login sessions even though this is wasted bandwidth. Their current solution to this problem is to purchase another domain and host all static content from there. Adding the static field to d/ would tell browsers to never send any session information to that subdomain. This is (in my opinion) a cleaner solution since all transactions with Google can now take place under the same domain name.

jprider63
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by jprider63 »

domob wrote: Of course, if you want a system that incentivises spending, then demurrage is indeed more honest than inflation.
Can you explain why you say that inflation is less honest? If you can guarantee a fixed inflation rate (perhaps by automatically adjusting the mining difficulty), everyone would expect the change in value of their coins.
domob wrote: Furthermore, why do you actually want to incentivise spending / binding coins? Namecoin isn't intended as a payment system, and certainly not as one that should drive up consumption and encourage economic growth.
Why should Namecoin not be used as a payment system? It is a crypto-currency. The currency aspect of Namecoin is mutually beneficial to the key-value store aspect. Miners are rewarded for their work with coins they can use to purchase things, and mining strengthens the security of the network as a whole.

biolizard89
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 am
os: linux

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by biolizard89 »

jprider63 wrote:The way I understand how current cookies work is that the web server can either set the cookie for the site as a whole, or for a specific subdomain. There is currently no way to exclude cookies from a subdomain. This is a problem if a site, say Google, has many subdomains that all share login session information. Now if Google wants to add a static subdomain, this subdomain will receive the login sessions even though this is wasted bandwidth. Their current solution to this problem is to purchase another domain and host all static content from there. Adding the static field to d/ would tell browsers to never send any session information to that subdomain. This is (in my opinion) a cleaner solution since all transactions with Google can now take place under the same domain name.
According to a quick Startpage search, the following links suggest that this is incorrect:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3865 ... in-request
http://www.phpied.com/www-vs-no-www-and-cookies/

Seems that you can tie a cookie to www.example.bit, and static.example.bit won't get the cookies.
Jeremy Rand, Lead Namecoin Application Engineer
NameID: id/jeremy
DyName: Dynamic DNS update client for .bit domains.

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biolizard89
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 am
os: linux

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by biolizard89 »

jprider63 wrote:Why should Namecoin not be used as a payment system? It is a crypto-currency. The currency aspect of Namecoin is mutually beneficial to the key-value store aspect. Miners are rewarded for their work with coins they can use to purchase things, and mining strengthens the security of the network as a whole.
Unlike Bitcoin, the value of Namecoin's currency is directly tied to its inherent usefulness in storing data in a secure, private, decentralized way. In other words, namecoins are valuable because the number of 0.01 NMC units in circulation is (in theory) less than the number of domains and identities than its target audience may wish to use.
Jeremy Rand, Lead Namecoin Application Engineer
NameID: id/jeremy
DyName: Dynamic DNS update client for .bit domains.

Donations: BTC 1EcUWRa9H6ZuWPkF3BDj6k4k1vCgv41ab8 ; NMC NFqbaS7ReiQ9MBmsowwcDSmp4iDznjmEh5

jprider63
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by jprider63 »

biolizard89 wrote:
jprider63 wrote:The way I understand how current cookies work is that the web server can either set the cookie for the site as a whole, or for a specific subdomain. There is currently no way to exclude cookies from a subdomain. This is a problem if a site, say Google, has many subdomains that all share login session information. Now if Google wants to add a static subdomain, this subdomain will receive the login sessions even though this is wasted bandwidth. Their current solution to this problem is to purchase another domain and host all static content from there. Adding the static field to d/ would tell browsers to never send any session information to that subdomain. This is (in my opinion) a cleaner solution since all transactions with Google can now take place under the same domain name.
According to a quick Startpage search, the following links suggest that this is incorrect:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3865 ... in-request
http://www.phpied.com/www-vs-no-www-and-cookies/

Seems that you can tie a cookie to http://www.example.bit, and static.example.bit won't get the cookies.
Right, but what I'm saying is there is no way to set a cookie for mail.example.com, http://www.example.com, and docs.example.com, while excluding static.google.com.

jprider63
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by jprider63 »

biolizard89 wrote:
jprider63 wrote:Why should Namecoin not be used as a payment system? It is a crypto-currency. The currency aspect of Namecoin is mutually beneficial to the key-value store aspect. Miners are rewarded for their work with coins they can use to purchase things, and mining strengthens the security of the network as a whole.
Unlike Bitcoin, the value of Namecoin's currency is directly tied to its inherent usefulness in storing data in a secure, private, decentralized way. In other words, namecoins are valuable because the number of 0.01 NMC units in circulation is (in theory) less than the number of domains and identities than its target audience may wish to use.
Ok sure. But does this mean I shouldn't use Namecoin to pay for other goods? If Namecoin has value, it seems reasonable to trade it for other things of equal value.

biolizard89
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 am
os: linux

Re: Newbie looking to get involved

Post by biolizard89 »

jprider63 wrote:
biolizard89 wrote:
jprider63 wrote:The way I understand how current cookies work is that the web server can either set the cookie for the site as a whole, or for a specific subdomain. There is currently no way to exclude cookies from a subdomain. This is a problem if a site, say Google, has many subdomains that all share login session information. Now if Google wants to add a static subdomain, this subdomain will receive the login sessions even though this is wasted bandwidth. Their current solution to this problem is to purchase another domain and host all static content from there. Adding the static field to d/ would tell browsers to never send any session information to that subdomain. This is (in my opinion) a cleaner solution since all transactions with Google can now take place under the same domain name.
According to a quick Startpage search, the following links suggest that this is incorrect:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3865 ... in-request
http://www.phpied.com/www-vs-no-www-and-cookies/

Seems that you can tie a cookie to http://www.example.bit, and static.example.bit won't get the cookies.
Right, but what I'm saying is there is no way to set a cookie for mail.example.com, http://www.example.com, and docs.example.com, while excluding static.google.com.
Okay, I see what you're saying. Would an acceptable workaround be to use mail.www.example.com (included), docs.www.example.com (included), and static.example.com (excluded)?
Jeremy Rand, Lead Namecoin Application Engineer
NameID: id/jeremy
DyName: Dynamic DNS update client for .bit domains.

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