Namecoin foundation

virtual_master
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by virtual_master »

They are some very good points in Biolizard89's argumentation and it is also corresponding 100% with my former opinion in this thread. However I need to reconsider and complete my former proposal a little bit.
It would help a lot to have something like Bitcoin has with Bitcoin Foundation. At least if it would be able to collect funds what we lack.
But it would also attract a lot of hate as some would feel that it contradicts to the decentralization principle.
biolizard89 wrote:I think there are a few different use cases here. In order from least to most controversial:

Job #1 of the Bitcoin Foundation is to pay Gavin Andreson to write code. I don't see any problem with this; Gavin is doing a fantastic job as far as I can tell, and if we can fund code development for Namecoin (phelix's NMDF is one example model), I think that would be beneficial.
I agree. It would be fine to have a main time developer like Gavin or more Gavin's. But who would pay for him/them ? Making a Namecoin Foundation doesn't mean that this would have automatically the money for that. But the hate of some people could have from the beginning because they would make an analogy with the Bitcoin Foundation..
biolizard89 wrote: Job #2 of the Bitcoin Foundation is generic PR. Namecoin is in serious need of some organized PR efforts, as we've seen both with clueless journalists calling us a cybercriminal tool as well as with average Bitcoin users not knowing anything about what we're working on. I think this is extremely beneficial as well.
Correct. A representing, marketing and schooling organization would be also beneficial.
biolizard89 wrote: Job #3 of the Bitcoin Foundation is lobbying regulators for favorable policy. This appears to be the most controversial activity. However, I personally don't see any issue with trying to educate regulators. The fact is, they will gain interest in Namecoin the moment WikiLeaks or The Pirate Bay start getting significant traffic via Namecoin. I see no problem with separating legally uncontroversial use cases from controversial ones in terms of lobbying. In other words, I'm totally fine with telling regulators "Yes, someone can in theory place illegal content in the blockchain... but we've made it uneconomical for them to do so, so the only people doing so will be occasional trolls who are willing to blow a bunch of cash; anyone who really wants to distribute illegal content will be using Freenet or something similar." This is important for them to know; otherwise we'll be dealing with the worst possible kind of regulator: a clueless regulator who's trying to look like they're doing something. In a similar sense, I have no problem with telling regulators "Yes, someone could use .bit to link to Silk Road / whatever random boogieman website is in style this week, but censoring them at the DNS level is exactly what SOPA tried to do, and it was completely rejected by the public and by Congress and the President because it was more effective to use traditional police work to bring down Silk Road and because censoring at the DNS level would have had very bad results for Internet freedom." The fact that the lobbyists are distancing themselves from Silk Road doesn't mean that they're censoring the blockchain -- by all means, Silk Road could use .bit, and if they were somehow prevented from doing so, something would probably be broken in the system. But distancing yourself from legally controversial use cases while talking to regulators is a quite reasonable thing to do IMHO. Has any of the controversial Bitcoin economy been directly harmed by Bitcoin Foundation lobbying for less regulation? Consider that 2 years ago, Chuck Schumer was going on an angry rant about how Bitcoin needed to be banned -- have you seen that kind of crap from regulators and legislators lately? No? Maybe because Bitcoin Foundation's lobbying is going well?

(Sorry for the length of the above....)
This part is exactly which is the most controversial and I am not sure if we really need it. At least not in this form.
Why we don't need political lobbying ?
1. Wee don't need to exclude politicians. But we should treat them like any other people who is interested in Namecoin.
Namecoin should stay for every positive human value: for informational and physical Freedom(with Namecoin Passport), for Privacy, for Environment Protection(as recycling 99% of the hash-power) and for the Equality of the people.
2. Most of the benefit what would bring political lobbying it has been already done by the Bitcoin Foundation, as cryptocurrency and what applies for Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies in general from legal point of view it will apply mostly for Namecoin also - at least I guess so.
3. Lobbying has a double edge and trying to influence them they would also try to influence Namecoin and undergrab the decentralized structure.
4. This part would attract the most hate from the users.

--------------------------------
So we should learn something from the faults of Bitcoin Foundation but we should take what is positive from them.
a. May be we should give another name to cut a direct connection and analogy.
b. We should make it more decentralized with different layers to hamper influencing Namecoin by politicians.
--------------------------------
This is my new proposal:
Let us take Phelix's Namecoin Marketing and Development Found and cut it in two. :) (only in the functionality)
1. Namecoin Marketing and Information Fund.
or Namecoin Liberty Fund could be also named (if taking some Namecoin Passport issuing services - which could be beneficial to many people and could create a positive media echo also like the Feeding with Bitcoin)
How to raise founds ? Collection of membership fee, collecting donations, applying for NGO style funding and sponsorship programs as promoter for Informational Freedom and Physical Freedom.
Informing politicians and mass media could be in their program but not direct political lobbying.
2. Namecoin Development Found
This should be responsible for financing, testing and development of the Namecoin core software. (like client, browser support, ID)
How to raise founds ? Collecting donations and eventually adding a small development fee in the client(standard setting but can be disabled - I already proposed this)
Separating the team who are educating politicians about Namecoin and developers would hamper a direct influencing from a government how to develop Namecoin.
3. Additional Namecoin Projects should be also separated.
Why ?
- distributed responsibility
- better funding
- more development power
- higher decentralization
For ex. I can imagine to outsource emitting Namecoin Bonds and Shares to a financial institute like Kraken.
Why ? They have the financial and development power for that, they have a positive attitude to the Namecoin project and users would also trust them.

Another outsourcing and fundraising possibility could be eventually in a Mastercoin style public fundraising and shared revenue.(of course this could be also organized by a financial institute or an independent group)
My wondering is less for the technical aspect but more how they managed to raise 5.000 BTC and how the values of their shares raised 15x. This shows the popularity of the idea. Whatever if they succeed or fail by the technical realization - the core project of Bitcoin cannot be blamed for it.
This must be not necessary a technical imitation like blockchain riding - because Namecoin can do this already in the core aspect.
Here could be a Bond and Share emitting in a Namespace, contract registration service in a Namespace or a DHT based Blockchain Riding application (like Indolering's proposal) if exists any. This could also protect the Namecoin core development and Namecoin image from potential controversial applications.
http://namecoinia.org/
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indolering
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by indolering »

I haven't read this entire forum in detail, but I propose that we chose a third route in the short term and utilize the Software Freedom Conservancy. Their mission is basically to remove as much of the administrative overhead of running a free-software projects as possible providing us with a legal structure, a tax-deductible non-profit org to handle donations, take care of trademark stuff, etc.

Before anyone cries foul, check out this edited list of member projects:
  • Boost
  • BusyBox
  • Git
  • Inkscape
  • Mercurial
  • phpMyAdmin
  • PyPy
  • Samba
  • Selenium
  • Squeak
  • Sugar Labs
  • Twisted
  • Wine
The only draw-back is the 10% of donation goes their general fund (which goes to paying their staff) and keep in mind that we can always leave. We could also look into the Apache foundation and possibly others, but I think some non-profit that has helped other open-source projects make this transition would be incredibly helpful. There is a lot of ways to screw up and they can help prevent us from doing that as well as add credibility, transparency, and trust to whatever organizational structure sprouts up.
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phelix
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by phelix »

Reviving this thread as discussion about a foundation should be public.

To be clear: I don't think we need one yet.
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domob
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by domob »

Good idea. With respect to the Bitcoin Foundation as comparison, I don't really like the seemingly US-centric lobbying they do (as well as their "private forums" and all that). So I see the most pressing need for Namecoin to be some structure to manage the "official" code-base, website, forum, wiki and all that, and controlling that no rogue entity can take those over without community agreement. Plus it could hold NMC funds for bounties and project development, like phelix currently does with the NMDF.

I don't think it should engage with policy makers and lobbying, as that should be done (in case someone deems it necessary) by local groups based on local jurisdiction. I'm not even sure how to best structure the foundation, because I'd prefer it to be international and not a non-profit of some particular country. But I guess for legal ownership of domains/servers and things like this, it would be necessary?
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virtual_master
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by virtual_master »

A good alternative would be a Registered Voluntary Association with a lot of daughter Associations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association
In Europe this is a very common and flexible juristic form without having so much overhead like the Foundation and anybody can make it without a lawyer for just a couple of Euro registration fee.
Members of a Registered Voluntary Association can be physical persons and juristic persons(other associations, companies, religious organizations, foundations, political parties and even states-as far as I know).
Members of a registered association are not liable juristic for the actions(damage) of the association only the executive(if there was a criminal intention).
Most associations make a daughter-association for every specific purpose and they are all member of the mother-association because every association can only receive a couple of thousand Euro subsidy from the state. The members of the daughter Associations can be different or the same. So they are millions of registered associations.
A typical example is a Chess-Association.
------------------------
Foundations are much complicated to register in Europe and they cost more, lawyers are also implied.
In Europe Foundations are made mostly by millionaires to evade tax and they are under increased financial attention of the authorities.
------------------------
However in America this could be different, with better public echo for Foundations and a slightly negative image for Associations, where Voluntary Associations have a Mafia-like image.
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khal
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by khal »

virtual_master wrote:A good alternative would be a Registered Voluntary Association with a lot of daughter Associations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association
Yes, it's pretty easy to create a non-profit association in France (I've already created one to give some computer teaching during my studies) :
- 3 (maybe 2 sufficient) founders (one "president", one "secretary" and one "treasurer")
- about 50€ to register it during a rendez-vous with some state bureaucracy (don't know if all founders must be present)
- it requires a "Annual General Meeting" to vote for the association rules

phelix wrote:Reviving this thread as discussion about a foundation should be public.

To be clear: I don't think we need one yet.
What do we "need" to be ready in your opinion ?

And, are we not too much disorganized currently ?
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phelix
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by phelix »

khal wrote:
virtual_master wrote:A good alternative would be a Registered Voluntary Association with a lot of daughter Associations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association
Yes, it's pretty easy to create a non-profit association in France (I've already created one to give some computer teaching during my studies) :
- 3 (maybe 2 sufficient) founders (one "president", one "secretary" and one "treasurer")
- about 50€ to register it during a rendez-vous with some state bureaucracy (don't know if all founders must be present)
- it requires a "Annual General Meeting" to vote for the association rules
There is something similar here. Even voluntary associations can be a bureaucratic pita if some of the members want it to be that way. But anyway, how to do it internationally?
phelix wrote:Reviving this thread as discussion about a foundation should be public.

To be clear: I don't think we need one yet.
What do we "need" to be ready in your opinion ?

And, are we not too much disorganized currently ?
Maybe it's just my dislike of the Bitcoin Foundation with their focus on the US. Though this might also not be reasonable.... with the senate hearings they did well.

I enjoyed Namecoin to work as a very decentralized project so it is difficult to accept a more structured approach.

Formalization takes freedom and fun out of it. Next to speculation fancy Namecoin is only used experimentally. IMHO a formal structure will only become necessary once a reasonable amount of people really use it. Formalization will suck up a lot of our resources that can be used in much better ways.

Already the domain name issues and forum moving discussions take a lot of time that could be used to create new projects to finally find the Namecoin launch niche.
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indolering
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by indolering »

phelix wrote:
khal wrote:A good alternative would be a Registered Voluntary Association with a lot of daughter Associations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association
Yes, it's pretty easy to create a non-profit association in France (I've already created one to give some computer teaching during my studies) :
- 3 (maybe 2 sufficient) founders (one "president", one "secretary" and one "treasurer")
- about 50€ to register it during a rendez-vous with some state bureaucracy (don't know if all founders must be present)
- it requires a "Annual General Meeting" to vote for the association rules
Right, it's easy to setup a non-profit here as well. But if you want the LEGAL protections offered by a non-profit (i.e. limiiting personal liability to the developers) it has to have real meetings and whatnot.
Developers working alone, apart from any corporate form, are not shielded from personal liability for project-related activities. If a developer takes donations or otherwise receives money for working on a solo project, the developer must report that compensation as personal income and pay income taxes on it. Likewise, all legal liability to third parties will fall to the developer. For example, the developer may be liable to users for breach of any express warranties made regarding the software, or any implied warranties that are not effectively disclaimed. Claims by other software producers for copyright, patent, or trademark infringement could also be brought directly against the developer. While there may be advantages to one-developer projects, it is important to realize that the personal assets of the developer could be completely exposed. Formal legal structures, while not a panacea, can help developers to manage their liability and risk.
From this legal primer.

virtual_master wrote: There is something similar here. Even voluntary associations can be a bureaucratic pita if some of the members want it to be that way. But anyway, how to do it internationally?
Internationally? I think that just means that there is a legal presence in each country.
phelix wrote:Reviving this thread as discussion about a foundation should be public.

To be clear: I don't think we need one yet.
What do we "need" to be ready in your opinion ?

And, are we not too much disorganized currently ?
Maybe it's just my dislike of the Bitcoin Foundation with their focus on the US. Though this might also not be reasonable.... with the senate hearings they did well.
[/quote]

I spoke with the international affairs person there, the 3rd person the foundation has hired to do anything. He is trying to setup a platform for international Bitcoin organizations to help them coordinate, get funding, and exert influence in their areas. They want to setup an international legal defense fund for the future, they have lawyers, they have lobbyists in Washington, all things we could use.

As much as I dislike the influence America has on international laws, our best chances of influencing them is with a strong US presence.
phelix wrote: I enjoyed Namecoin to work as a very decentralized project so it is difficult to accept a more structured approach.

Formalization takes freedom and fun out of it. Next to speculation fancy Namecoin is only used experimentally. IMHO a formal structure will only become necessary once a reasonable amount of people really use it. Formalization will suck up a lot of our resources that can be used in much better ways.

Already the domain name issues and forum moving discussions take a lot of time that could be used to create new projects to finally find the Namecoin launch niche.
The lack of a formal structure to help us transition when a developer becomes inactive is exactly what has been hurting Namecoin. With all due respect to Khal for his past contributions, he has been absent for over two years and it's nearly killed the project.

We can't get any new projects launched until we get the current mess sorted out. I've talked to people who have tried to contribute their new projects only to be stymied by the wiki being full of spam and the project being directionless. Want to donate? Well, you can't do it without paying taxes on it. Bonus: I'm unable to spin up potential sources of funding (badges, physical coins, kickstarters, and straight donations) because I have no where to put it all.

When I have raised these issues in the past, others admitted to me that they were glad I am working on it and surprised no-one else had already done something. Everyone is just waiting around for permission from some authority figure that does not exist. In a volunteer setting what really constitutes permissions is the willingness to put in the time.

So, I'm just going to start by applying to join an umbrella group or start a non-profit. Maybe the Bitcoin foundation will give us a grant.
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virtual_master
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by virtual_master »

phelix wrote:
khal wrote:
virtual_master wrote:A good alternative would be a Registered Voluntary Association with a lot of daughter Associations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association
Yes, it's pretty easy to create a non-profit association in France (I've already created one to give some computer teaching during my studies) :
- 3 (maybe 2 sufficient) founders (one "president", one "secretary" and one "treasurer")
- about 50€ to register it during a rendez-vous with some state bureaucracy (don't know if all founders must be present)
- it requires a "Annual General Meeting" to vote for the association rules
There is something similar here. Even voluntary associations can be a bureaucratic pita if some of the members want it to be that way. But anyway, how to do it internationally?
If the Voluntary Association is bureaucratic what do you think how is the Foundation ?
It costs about thousand times more. Minimum 50 000 EUR in Europe. And I guess the bureaucracy is also not easier.
Before we don't have that amount don't even think about Foundation in Europe because it will be not enough for the registration and the lawyers.

Internationalism is generally not a problem by Voluntary Associations.(at least inside of the EU) The foundation members don't even need to speak the countries language(in the EU) where is registered and citizens of other EU countries may not be discriminated in any way by the law. However how is the situation with non-EU members I am not sure - the regulations may be different by each country. I think non EU members may not be board members in some countries if they are not living in that country.
In Germany at least 7 persons can found an Association, in France, Austria and in Switzerland at least 2 persons.
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indolering
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Re: Namecoin foundation

Post by indolering »

I would like to propose that Job #1 for any Namecoin legal entity is to reduce the developers legal exposure.

Heavily summarized excerpt,
... So why moving? ... Because we are under attack. And when I say “we”, I mean Giulio and I as individuals. Neither Clipperz infrastructure nor your encrypted data stored on Clipperz are exposed to any risk.

One day I was summoned by Italian police officers because of a fraud complaint. The plaintiff declared that a bank wire transfer of 10K€ was ordered unknowingly to her from the online banking service of her bank and the beneficiary was indeed Clipperz. I just answered that Clipperz does not have any relationship with the plaintiff and no reason to ask for such a large amount of money. I signed the statement and left the police station with a weird feeling.

In the following weeks, about 15 similar fraud complaints were filed and I spent quite a lot of time answering questions by authorities (Carabinieri and the Postal Police). A couple of time police officers visited our workplace in Bagnacavallo and questioned Giulio, but it was mostly me because of my sole administrator role in the company.

...But the largest nonsense was the size of the transfers: almost all of them were slightly above 10K€ (e.g.: 10,044€, 10,126€, …), that is above the daily limit allowed by almost any bank for automatic processing. Chances for such orders to go undetected and executed were almost nil. The only effect they were certainly obtaining was putting a dozen district attorneys at work, from the Turin to Palermo. Each of them independently investigating Clipperz.

Months went by, we were not formally accused of anything and we hoped that everything was going to resolve by itself. The wave of attacks lasted just a few days between late May and early June (all fraudulent wires were ordered in those days), so we felt uneasy but relieved. But then, in early November a 10K€ transfer was deposited on our account! The bank called to ask the authorization to reverse it and we said “Of course!”. But it meant that a new wave of attacks had been launched. And more trips to police stations, more questions, and more lawyer expenses.

Furthermore the legal office of our bank (the largest ethical bank in Italy) is currently considering to terminate our account because of potential fraud allegations and internal money laundering policies. (!?)
These are people I know. I have walked them through some interesting use-cases for Namecoin, explained the situation at Mozilla, and even tried hammering out how we could mutually verify our code. Someone is hacking into bank accounts to try and get their password service shut down. We are developing a commodity, something that is worth tens of millions of dollars and this triggers a lot of very nasty legal ramifications for even for innocent mistakes.

Being decentralized means that we are also individual legal targets, this is what keeps me up at night. The technology and trust needs to be decentralized as possible but being decentralized legally means that we as individuals are taking on the full brunt of such legal attacks. This is why I am partial to partnering with an umbrella organization: they know what different forms of protection the different legal entities can provide. Getting such legal protections in place for our people should be the most important factor in deciding how to go about this. Until someone steps up and says, "I am a lawyer" I just don't think we should try to cook up something on our own.
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