Why the certificate system is broken

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cryptosile
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:07 am
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Why the certificate system is broken

Post by cryptosile »

I made a video talking about why the certificate authority system is broken. Hopefully it can be used to be explained why namecoin is important. I'm working on a follow up video as well that describes how namecoin works to solve the problems in the current CA system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LEru8wyGJw

biolizard89
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 am
os: linux

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by biolizard89 »

cryptosile wrote:I made a video talking about why the certificate authority system is broken. Hopefully it can be used to be explained why namecoin is important. I'm working on a follow up video as well that describes how namecoin works to solve the problems in the current CA system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LEru8wyGJw
If you're willing to write up a text document (images are fine) describing the problems with CA's and/or how Namecoin's TLS feature can solve them (and assuming you're okay with the license), I'd be okay with adding that to the bit.namecoin.info site. It's certainly an important topic that most people don't understand.
Jeremy Rand, Lead Namecoin Application Engineer
NameID: id/jeremy
DyName: Dynamic DNS update client for .bit domains.

Donations: BTC 1EcUWRa9H6ZuWPkF3BDj6k4k1vCgv41ab8 ; NMC NFqbaS7ReiQ9MBmsowwcDSmp4iDznjmEh5

mightbemike
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Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by mightbemike »

I honestly thought you missed the main point entirely. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

Your claim that having so many CAs is the problem is just wrong. If there were only 3 the system would still be broken. Having to trust third parties is the issue, not the proliferation of CAs.
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cryptosile
Posts: 7
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os: mac

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by cryptosile »

Thanks for the feedback. Blunt is good. In retrospect I did take about 10 minutes to basically say there are too many CA's. On the issue of trust, trust-less is always better but it doesn't mean the systems that require trust are broken. I came to this conclusion after considering the fact that everyday you we all trust 3rd parties with our lives. Does that make that system broken? I think no. What am I talking about? Well everyday you drive down the road you are trusting that other drivers will follow the rules and stay in their lanes. This is a system that relies on trust. It breaks down often but is it fundamentally broken? I would say no. Will we in the future come up with better solutions? Probably (hopefully driverless cars come sooner rather than later...) anyway back to the CA system. I think the CA system still today provides value, but that level of trust diminishes every day.

I actually got the # of CAs slightly wrong in my terminology and because I really only made that single point, i actually did a follow up video... I make several more points and tried to keep it as short as possible but ended up using about 10 minutes again.

Better video on why CA's are broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P7GkgJ2ip4

I'm currenlty working on putting together a walkthrough video of how to setup a .bit domain and how great it is.... but ran into a bunch of issues:

https://forum.namecoin.info/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1971
https://forum.namecoin.info/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1972

so... not sure when I'll finish that... so while the CA system is breaking down the namecoin system isn't quite ready for the masses probably.

biolizard89
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 am
os: linux

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by biolizard89 »

cryptosile wrote:Thanks for the feedback. Blunt is good. In retrospect I did take about 10 minutes to basically say there are too many CA's. On the issue of trust, trust-less is always better but it doesn't mean the systems that require trust are broken. I came to this conclusion after considering the fact that everyday you we all trust 3rd parties with our lives. Does that make that system broken? I think no. What am I talking about? Well everyday you drive down the road you are trusting that other drivers will follow the rules and stay in their lanes. This is a system that relies on trust. It breaks down often but is it fundamentally broken? I would say no. Will we in the future come up with better solutions? Probably (hopefully driverless cars come sooner rather than later...) anyway back to the CA system. I think the CA system still today provides value, but that level of trust diminishes every day.

I actually got the # of CAs slightly wrong in my terminology and because I really only made that single point, i actually did a follow up video... I make several more points and tried to keep it as short as possible but ended up using about 10 minutes again.

Better video on why CA's are broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P7GkgJ2ip4

I'm currenlty working on putting together a walkthrough video of how to setup a .bit domain and how great it is.... but ran into a bunch of issues:

https://forum.namecoin.info/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1971
https://forum.namecoin.info/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1972

so... not sure when I'll finish that... so while the CA system is breaking down the namecoin system isn't quite ready for the masses probably.
Trusting other drivers isn't inherently (as) broken because the other drivers are just as likely to be injured/killed as you are if they crash into you. CA's will not suffer any significant consequences if they screw you on purpose, nor if they unintentionally get compromised.

I generally agree with Mike here, the problem with CA's (as well as the Convergence model) is that any third parties must be trusted.

By the way, Moxie's Blackhat talk about Convergence has some interesting points. While I don't agree with his conclusion that Convergence solves the problem, I think a lot of his points (especially DNSSEC/DANE being worse than CA's) are important to note. You might want to take a look at that.
Jeremy Rand, Lead Namecoin Application Engineer
NameID: id/jeremy
DyName: Dynamic DNS update client for .bit domains.

Donations: BTC 1EcUWRa9H6ZuWPkF3BDj6k4k1vCgv41ab8 ; NMC NFqbaS7ReiQ9MBmsowwcDSmp4iDznjmEh5

cryptosile
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:07 am
os: mac

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by cryptosile »

I completely agree the current CA system is broken, I just don't take the absolute stance that any system that relies on trust is "broken" . there are just things that can't be done otherwise. That doesn't mean we can't strive to make things as trust less as possible. I'm just trying to be realistic and pragmatic while also promoting and pushing for the ideal.


They do have consequences...:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/DigiNota ... 2652.shtml

mightbemike
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by mightbemike »

I learned new stuff about Bitshares from your next video, nice job on that. I was always confused about Protoshares and Angelshares and BitsharesX :)

But I would feel safer driving if I did not need to trust the other drivers/cars. At least I know it when somebody swerves over and hits my car. If a CA is compromised, the victim usually will not even realize it.
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mightbemike
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Why the certificate system is broken

Post by mightbemike »

Um, I just watched your Namecoin rant: https://www.everydaycrypto.com/?p=71

It sounds like a frustrating exercise to be sure. But I guess my view goes more like this:
DNS is hard to get right. The old system has been trying for 3 decades already and is still unable to get it done in a secure way.

Domains on a blockchain is done. Getting the names to resolve for John Q. Public is hard. Fixing the security holes in DNS is also hard. If these were easy they would've been done long ago. The general strategy seems sound, but the mechanics take time & effort.
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