Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.0 ?

sudoquai
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by sudoquai »

snailbrain wrote:have thought of something "similar ish".. but not as an environment to browse sites etc.. but this could be done with enough time/"money"

maybe after our next project Chronokings :D (mostly the way there already).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262599.0
Still interested Amigo ? ;)
NameID: id/sudo.wonder >>> Namecoin @ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/namecoin.org

mightbemike
Posts: 57
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by mightbemike »

sudoquai wrote:
mightbemike wrote:yep - trifecta of currency, identity, storage of data

specifically the data needed seems to be:
- inventory
- friends list
- profile

inventory is huge, the other two are small
Yes, this is exactly, what i've had in mind. This system could profit amazing from Namecoin. I am not sure how to solve the inventory problem yet.
Can we just use Bittorrent for it ?
I think the inventory storage is a job for storj or perhaps in the future, maidsafe. It's a really ugly, horrible hack to string together multiple entries in the blockchain just because the data doesn't fit in one.

To use Namecoin, you should store only references to the "inventory" and probably "friends" data. Huge amounts of inventory can be stored on a network like maidsafe, even if access times are not as speedy as using a centralized server.

Profile sounds to me like id/ namespace, just replace the real world values like email, etc.
NMC: NFhmGAqzRpZbGs3uCPPo7DJKuscuL4Aap2
id/mightbemike

sudoquai
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by sudoquai »

mightbemike wrote:
sudoquai wrote:
mightbemike wrote:yep - trifecta of currency, identity, storage of data

specifically the data needed seems to be:
- inventory
- friends list
- profile

inventory is huge, the other two are small
Yes, this is exactly, what i've had in mind. This system could profit amazing from Namecoin. I am not sure how to solve the inventory problem yet.
Can we just use Bittorrent for it ?
I think the inventory storage is a job for storj or perhaps in the future, maidsafe. It's a really ugly, horrible hack to string together multiple entries in the blockchain just because the data doesn't fit in one.

To use Namecoin, you should store only references to the "inventory" and probably "friends" data. Huge amounts of inventory can be stored on a network like maidsafe, even if access times are not as speedy as using a centralized server.

Profile sounds to me like id/ namespace, just replace the real world values like email, etc.
I've thought more on a 100% Namecoin solution. We could use a torrent-like tracker technology or similar for it. The idea would be Namecoin referencing to the real database and not holding it itself. Syncnet for example is using Bittorrent Sync to keep webserver (and data) decentralized.

Wouldn't it be possible to use something like Bittorrent Sync for the inventory database of a particular grid. For example, we could use the descriptor of the .bit domain, extend the data field for "opensimulator" and the own "Bittorent Sync"-Link (or similar) to get the load from Namecoin as a database. On this way we could enable Firestorm to search Namecoin Blockchain for all Opensimulator .BIT domains and connect them to a Hypergrid.

Like you said we could use /id for the avatar data and the currency could be Namecoin itself in the Hypergrid. As you and me know, people love their Avatars in Secondlife, and i know nobody with an older avatar, who has deleted his/her avatar and a lot of people are keen on good names. As a new user you could register for a /id avatar name. This would boost Namecoin for identity a lot.

My idea would be to have a OS which loads directly into the Hypergrid (by Firestorm) and using the Hypergrid directly as an Operating System, by running 3D applications on a more "natural" way. Example: Turning on the gramophone with the avatar instead of moving windows around. Applications can be written in Lindenscript or as far as i know in Opensimulator C# as well.

This system is comparable to Google's ChromeOS Idea with the difference, that the Internet is 3D and even a grandma would understand the principles of this operating system ...

We would have millions of people from Secondlife - this could be a real Facebook "Killer" and a absolutely free, censorshipfree and uncontrolable virtual world. People using Secondlife are using Lindendollar as a currency every day. I am sure they would love the idea to have a currency, without central dependencies to Lindenlabs. This would solve the currency exchange problems in Secondlife instantly.

The interesting thing is, that we could use the .BIT domains in the "Managing Fields" and enter a custom JSON String and mark this .bit domain as "Grid". On this way we don't need anymore a central list of Grids to be able to connect them to a Hypergrid. .BIT Domains would be very interesting for Secondlife inhabitants because, they love the idea to stay anonymous (even if people like John say its pseudoanonymous - its okay if it is, but the most secondlife people dont care for it anyway how good its traceable)

All the data (avatar, friends, etc) could be hold on a decentralized database technology (something like Bittorrent Sync with different access rights, a decentralized "Dropbox" which is visible and manageable like a folder on the operating system (this way we could spare a lot of work, by changing a lot of code). The link to the database could be stored in the .BIT Domain custom configuration as well. Do you have a idea for a proper and fast database, Mike ? I think the speed is no problem, we can use caching algorithms like in secondlife and the trend is that the internet is getting faster by up- and download rates. The speed problem could be solved by just waiting for a faster internet.

Namecoin as a currency in this world could be integrated by overriding the payment functions using calls to namecoind or future libcoin. Like in secondlife payments are not revertable but have the big advantage that you could exchange it worldwide on the way you like. Even other currencies like Bitcoin, Lite Doge or whatever can be integrated. Over a Trust Network in this Hypergrid we would have a decentralized exchange. You and me now that older avatars have a lot of trust because they have invested a lot in the avatar. I think a exchange system, which is checking the age of the avatar as well would help to make a strong exchange network. To make it simple for the beginning we could use Bitcoin, because there is already a experimental payment module for Opensimulator and on this way we could encourage new developer for Namecoin. If we use Namecoin as a currency, it would be easier to start the own Grid because you've earned Namecoin already in this world. That means as long as you have no Namecoin you are not able to start your own Grid / Sim. Like you and me know, nearly everybody is paying for land in Secondlife. I don't think this would be really a problem in the end. The biggest problem is maybe that Domains are already squatted, but by visiting the owner of a .BIT domain Grid inworld or a proper Trust Network .BIT Domain Trading would be able on this way on a "natural" way ...

All these things we could combine in a ready to use solution. I am thinking about a proper Debian based distribution with Opensimulator, Firestorm AND Namecoin Software already preinstalled (using Namecoin itself as a DNS Server). That means, you are starting this Operating System, loading seemlessly directly into Firestorm and your own Operating System, would act as a Grid which is connected by the Opensimulator Software automagically to the already existing Hypergrid, by scanning the Namecoin Blockchain for all Opensimulator powered .BIT domains. Your .BIT Domain would point in this case to your own IP-Address. A point for running Opensimulator automagically would be that all people i know don't like to pay for land in secondlife but all inhabitants need a lot of prims.

One very important thing is maybe the marketplace in this world. Do we need it ? I mean i can just rightclick a object and buy it. With a shield in this world "Grid MEGAOPENSIM.BIT for Sale" we could just rightclick-buy this domain (and maybe all data on this Sim by transfering it to the own database). The reputation of the seller could be checked with the trust Network. Bad reputation - no trade. Easy as that. Or if domob is able to integrate Domain Trading we could solve this automagically.

To summarize:

1) .BIT domains for a Hypergrid - i think its no problem and easy to implement. And like i can see we don't need SSL really. In this stage we could use NMC easily for Opensimulator.
2) Decentralized Database / File System which works like the Operating System File System with one difference - decentralized. If something like this exists, we could simply exchange the link in the Opensimulator Data Folder / Database for this decentralized File System / Database. Complexity could be nearly zero if we ignore speed issues, but i think this could be solved with the standard caching algorithm which is used in Firestorm
3) Namecoin/Bitcoin as a currency should have a low complexity as well. For the beginning we could use Virwox centralized, but already builtin currency.
4) Combining all factors to a out-of-the box solution in a modified linux operating system - maybe the hardest thing, if you think about the complexity of the configuration stuff.
5) We would need no marketing at all. Using a hypergrid, the crypto community in the back, all secondlife users interested in a decentralized "secondlife" and all Facebook, NSA and government haters would help growing this world at his own.

Mhh .. maybe the complexity isn't so big, that it can be solved by 2-3 people with average development skills. I think it's even able for a single person ...

I am still impressed by the high page views on this thread - really amazing. Didn't think this idea would bring it to the most viewed Namecoin thread in this forum. Everything begins with a idea ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EygqL--RW4
NameID: id/sudo.wonder >>> Namecoin @ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/namecoin.org

tosh0
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by tosh0 »

i think storing all the info of a game so complex as second-life should be on a distributed network of their own,
what i would like to see is , apart from the up-to-date namecoin, is a plug-in that allow universal login and in-game or in-app payments and trade. so that people do not need to register with their phone number, but with an openid etc. obviously this will require a nmc light client for mobile.

I don't know, maybe rare, unique digital objects (swords etc), valid across games, can be attached or represented by names in NMC. They could be traded with the atomic trading facility.?

To solve the problem of expiring names, i propose there could be different registration plans/tiers:
regular name will tie 0.01 coins and expire in 1 year,
silver names will tie 0.1 coins and expire in 10 years,
gold names will tie 1 nmc, expire in 100 years and you will be able to change the name to another unused one at any time. Silver and gold could have also extra storage space!

Meanwhile the system don't know the NMC price but it can determine if 50% of coins are locked, lower this fees for new names, etc.


Edit: added more ideas.
NMC: more stable than BTC!

sudoquai
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by sudoquai »

tosh0 wrote:i think storing all the info of a game so complex as second-life should be on a distributed network of their own,
what i would like to see is , apart from the up-to-date namecoin, is a plug-in that allow universal login and in-game or in-app payments and trade. so that people do not need to register with their phone number, but with an openid etc. obviously this will require a nmc light client for mobile.

I don't know, maybe rare, unique digital objects (swords etc), valid across games, can be attached or represented by names in NMC. They could be traded with the atomic trading facility.?

To solve the problem of expiring names, i propose there could be different registration plans/tiers:
regular name will tie 0.01 coins and expire in 1 year,
silver names will tie 0.1 coins and expire in 10 years,
gold names will tie 1 nmc, expire in 100 years and you will be able to change the name to another unused one at any time. Silver and gold could have also extra storage space!

Meanwhile the system don't know the NMC price but it can determine if 50% of coins are locked, lower this fees for new names, etc.


Edit: added more ideas.
Its maybe not so complex, like you believe, Tosh. I am analyzing at the moment the possibilities of OpenSIM. Most of the data doesn't have to be hold in the Blockchain due tue OpenSIMs nature of different Storage Server, which always allow transfering from on grid to an other using different Storage Servers (Inventory, Assets, etc etc). When a object has full permitions, we would always have a P2P model in this case and there is no point of doing the same thing with the Namecoin Blockchain.

As you said correctly the login is more interesting. OpenSIM supports different authentification methods - even OpenID is supported - domob has a good approach we could use. By running the OpenID Server directly on the own OpenSIM, there is no need to trust an other OpenID Provider.

That means, if i am right, Namecoin can be used perfectly for distributed authentification in OpenSIM and .bit Domains can be used perfectly to connect Grids. Namecoin itself can be used as a currency in OpenSIM. In this case we would cut the dependency to ICANN or any other specific organization and would have a fully independent Internet 3D as a result and the evolution of the nearly 50 year old Internet 2D we have at the moment - by using Hypergrid instead of Hypertext.

Interested people can write me a PM here, contacting me directly at Facebook or Secondlife Inworld with the Nickname "Sudo Wonder".

I believe its time for some innovations.

Best Regards,

Sudo.
NameID: id/sudo.wonder >>> Namecoin @ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/namecoin.org

rdc
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by rdc »

Suppose we were able to create this completely decentralized HyperGrid, what would the incentive be for current SL and OpenSim users to begin using it?

- rdc

sudoquai
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by sudoquai »

rdc wrote:Suppose we were able to create this completely decentralized HyperGrid, what would the incentive be for current SL and OpenSim users to begin using it?

- rdc
Freedom.

Independence from Lindenlabs, Facebook, ICANN or any government:
  • * exchange the cryptocurrency in this world like you want and when you want (this is a issue at Lindenlabs, they want to sell their own "Lindencoins" and are restricting exchanger).
    * design the content like you like without censorship and free speech.
    * your avatar and relating data is completely under your control - there is no possibility to ban you.
Sudo.

P.S.: There is a discussion on Hackernews as well, linking to this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408870 . Amazing, seems a lot of people are interested in this idea.
NameID: id/sudo.wonder >>> Namecoin @ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/namecoin.org

rdc
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by rdc »

Please, take a look at http://TheHyperGates.com . What you see there is sort of an aggregator, but the main thing is the HyperGate/HyperGrid listings.

The lists come from a network of in-world HyperGrid teleportation devices that I developed about five years ago. They are called HyperGates. They are programmed in such a way that when someone rezzes one, it automatically registers that HyperGate on the network and fills the menus of the HyperGate with HG/TP links to other HyperGrid destinations.

Over the years the network has continued to grow. There are currently 750 - 800 HyperGates on the network. To the best of my knowledge, our network is the largest teleport network in the metaverse, even larger than the largest one in SL.

I have been thinking of a ways to: give users the ability to register and maintain their own listing for their HyperGrid location without needing to rez a HyperGate, add a decentralized currency, make the data more accessible to 3rd party developers, etc... I wanted to do this in a way that would promote the growth of the HyperGrid

Originally, I was thinking about forking Namecoin. It could be done, but the whole issue of mining really bothers me. In my opinion, all of the blockchain currencies are broken because of centralized mining. Plus, if a mine-able, blockchain based currency was introduced to the OpenSim/SL communities, then they and the whole blockchain would be at the mercy of the miners. In one way or the other, they would need to pay miners for everything. OpenSim/SL users would have no real opportunity to earn and accumulate the currency themselves, other than paying miners.

Just recently, I also began investigating the possibility of using Ripple or forking Ripple to achieve the goals that I have had in mind.


I will begin sharing my ideas in this forum. Maybe together we can make something happen.


- rdc

rdc
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by rdc »

One thing to keep in mind is that all of the items in the following list of incentives already exist in the OpenSim/HyperGrid sphere today:
* exchange the cryptocurrency in this world like you want and when you want (this is a issue at Lindenlabs, they want to sell their own "Lindencoins" and are restricting exchanger).
* design the content like you like without censorship and free speech.
* your avatar and relating data is completely under your control - there is no possibility to ban you.
In fact, they have existed at least for the past 3 years since the Diva Distribution was started: http://metaverseink.com/Downloads.html

Despite this fact, it has not lured SL residents to the HyperGrid. The critical mass is still in SL. Most of the artists and builders that I have met in OpenSim still go to SL when they want to be in a social atmosphere.

From a software/technological perspective, there are several paths for implementing a fully Decentralized HyperGrid. The real challenge will be having the right incentives in place to get people to actually occupy it.

The implementation path that I am thinking of consists of three different incentive points:

* Storage
* Proxy
* Residents

Storage is the most obvious responsibility that needs to be incentivised. Many people will be needed to provide the valuable disk space for the distributed, cloud storage of assets and data.

Proxies will also be necessary. When a Viewer downloads the data for the objects of a region, it will make all network requests to the same IP:PORT. Since the assets will actually be stored across a number of different servers and IPs, intelligent proxies will need to be positioned between the Viewer and the Storage locations. These proxies will also require a certain amount of network resources and maintenance that will need to be incentivised.

Incentivising residents is the real key to success of the project. I feel the best way to incentivise people to occupy the Decentralized HyperGrid is to use the same tactic that was use in SL many years ago: pay people for being in-world. It would take some work to prevent people from gaming the system, but any currency that a user earned for their time in-world could be used to pay for the the cloud storage of their assets and the proxy service. Which would in turn incentivise the Storage and Proxy service providers.


All comments, questions, and feedback are welcomed.


- rdc

markm
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Re: Opensimulator + Firestormviewer + Namecoin = Internet 2.

Post by markm »

A big reason that "content creators" prefer Second Life is that they can make money there.

Alternatives tend to talk about making themselves similarly into "walled gardens" in order to attract "content creators".

A fully distributed system that cannot be censored would basically allow all content to be "pirated" content.

That is great for players/inhabitants who are more interested in deploying content and enjoying content than in being paid directly for content, and of course it would not prevent anyone from being paid to create content, they just won't be able to expect to be paid over and over and over again for the same content.

Maybe they will have to go to some kind of crowdfunding approach, "I will create this content and allow someone running this ultimate content-piracy system to see a copy of it, thus to be technically capable of putting out there for the world to freely use and re-use and adapt and modify, if thus and such an amount is raised to pay me to do it" instead of "hey that is my content you are copying around, I want to be paid each time you let someone render it".

Because with caches once you have glimpsed the entirety of an item - such as if someone wears a copy of it to your server - that is it, the cat is out of the bag, anyone using your server can now go ahead and clone it freely if you choose to have your server give that freedom, or if not if they can just get a good enough look at it maybe they can download it to their own server from their client?

It usually does no good to tell users "any data you let out into our system you hereby agree comes under GNU/whatever license" when they could be bringing stuff they have no right to put under whatever/such license. But with no censorship distributed systems once it is out there it is out there, there is no seizing of it or censoring of it by copyright lawyers or police or whatnot. Is there?

So people used to selling some creation of theirs over and over, instead of just making sure the hours they put into creating it get compensated by the time they show it in public, tend to gravitate to "walled gardens" that try to limit what people's computers are allowed to do with data that people's computers have been allowed to view/render. Which really is a vioplation of people's rights over their own computers isn't it? If you don't want my computer to do anything I please with your data, don't let it get access to that data. Because once something is seen, it ought to be remembered. People with photographic memories presumably can view a movie they have seen as many times as they like, why shouldn't people with prosthetic photographic memories, aka computers, have the same right/ability? What are prosthetics for, for gosh sakes? Same with prosthetic acting/drawing/painting/rendering limbs/organs/etc: If I cannot without the aid of such a prosthetic paint frame by frame a movie I have seen, isn't that kind of unfair? Prosthetics should be increasing people's abilities, not artificially preventing them using their prosthetics to full capability...

-MarkM-

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